By dismissing my posts as "opinion," you're protecting yourself from my argument's logic. Contrary to your opinion, my posts present a factual, logical and reason based argument.
You say that you want the troops home safely. By extension, your desire for this, is "proof," that you support the troops.
I disagree with Obama and Biden. I wish for their safety despite of that. Using your own reasoning, my wishing for their safety would be equivalent to my supporting Obama and Biden. Do you see the inductive fallacy behind that?
Again, how is it that these guys should come home safely?
Do you think they're just going to sit around and clean their riffles/carbines when they come under attack? Part of coming home safely is prevailing during the deployment. This includes fighting the enemy. If they fail to prevail over the enemy, they won't come home safely.
So, in order to come home safely, they have to prevail in the war. In order to do that, one of the things they have to do is fight. The airplane that they use to leave Iraq should be safe for the troops to fly out of that country safely. We have to be on the ball militarily to make sure that happens.
So, if you support their safely coming home, then you have to support the war. That's what the troops are there for.
"I am sure that there are some there that support the war. They volunteered so they obviously have the military mind set." - wolfs den
Some? Also, from the rest of your reply, they're children? Blind obedience?
You've GOT to be f***ken kidding me! The majority of the troops deployed to Iraq support the war. Yes, they volunteered to serve, but it has more than just having a military mindset.
They see a cause that many people I've debated with don't see, or understand. It's like what that Marine's wife said. They believe in what they're doing over there. I've explained some of this cause on Rants and Raves.
Their age ranges.
Most the new ones are in their late teens, early 20s. But you also have people in their mid to late 20s, their 30s, and 40s serving over there. The higher up you go in the age range, the higher up in rank you go, the stronger the support for the war becomes.
This isn't because of "blind" loyalty, or conditioning either. People in the military are free to think and believe what they want... there's a minority that opposes the war.
These guys may be in their early 20s, but they know a hell of a lot more about what's going on, big picture wise, than most people their age who aren't in the military. And they're not children either.
Basic Combat Training weeds the boys out. These guys served in combat.
They had to make decisions that non veteran civilians their age don't face on a daily basis. Many of these guys have responsibility most their counterparts won't have for years. These guys see the big picture, and have a better grasp of what's going on than non veterans older than them.
I have a hard time accepting your, "I support the troops" statements. Especially after you turn around and label them as kids. Blind obedience? Great, here, why don't you chew on this for a while:
"By supporting the troops, I mean I want them home safely." - wolfs den
"They are also mostly children and I do not take their blind obedience seriously." - wolfs den
Your words give your real standing on this away.
As for the military wives you met and their position on the war. I'll quote what a marine wife said here on R&R:
"I loved what you had to say! It's like you pretty much took the words right out of my mouth. My husband is a Marine serving in Iraq right now, and although I do miss him, I know what he's doing is important. When he or his friends are in between tours and are asked if they would ever go back, most say in a heartbeat! Why? Not because they are crazy, but because they know the importance of getting the job done. If we can finish what was started, this country will never move forward. And I find it funny that the people who oppose the war so much are the people with no ties to it. And the ones that don't exactly want the war, but are supporting it, are the ones with loved ones fighting for us. To all you in the military and those who support, thank you from the bottom of my heart!!" - Proud Marine Wife
There are a lot of reasons to why we don't have as much anti war activity now as we did in Vietnam. The draft is one. But they stopped that in 1973, the last year of US combat unit involvement in Vietnam.
I also credit alternative sources of information. Back then, as now, the media was opposed to the war. They basically had the monopoly on the news. Anchors didn't have to worry about online bloggers calling BS on their reporting. Nobody blogging from the "Green Zone" we'd set up over there giving us the real story of what's going on.
They didn't have talk show programs similar to Rush's, Bill's, and Sean's. They didn't have counter protest organizations like Protest Warrior.
Based on their different attitudes, I'd say that had congress been in Republican hands, with a Republican White House, and had these information counter balances been around during the Vietnam War, we would've won it completely, not just militarily.
Let's address your calls for Bush and Cheney's impeachment.
I debated with someone on a message board about this very topic. NONE of his "copy and paste from leftie site" amounted to justification for impeachment and removal. I've heard people argue that they should be impeached, but none of them offered any real facts to support that.
I could see that you have an underlying animosity against the military, and against the Bush Administration.
wolfs den said:
Again, your post states your opinion. But that does not make it valid. By supporting the troops, I mean I want them home safely. I am sure that there are some there that support the war. They volunteered so they obviously have the military mind set. They are also mostly children and I do not take their blind obedience seriously. I know I will get flamed for this but I really do not care. I work with many military wifes and some are for the war and many are not. I hope for their families sake that their husbands can get home safely. My generation faced a real animosity toward the returning military. I did not support that war, but I still did not spit on the returning vets either.
The only reason we dont have the same kind of rebellion about Iraq that we did with Viet Nam is that we don't have the draft active. People are of the opinion that since it doesn't effect them and the soldiers volunteered, that it is an non issue.
Now I will give you my opinion, not based on facts anymore than yours is. I think Bush and Cheney should be impeached and imprisoned and executed. If allowed to I would push the lethal cocktail myself.
You say that you want the troops home safely. By extension, your desire for this, is "proof," that you support the troops.
I disagree with Obama and Biden. I wish for their safety despite of that. Using your own reasoning, my wishing for their safety would be equivalent to my supporting Obama and Biden. Do you see the inductive fallacy behind that?
Again, how is it that these guys should come home safely?
Do you think they're just going to sit around and clean their riffles/carbines when they come under attack? Part of coming home safely is prevailing during the deployment. This includes fighting the enemy. If they fail to prevail over the enemy, they won't come home safely.
So, in order to come home safely, they have to prevail in the war. In order to do that, one of the things they have to do is fight. The airplane that they use to leave Iraq should be safe for the troops to fly out of that country safely. We have to be on the ball militarily to make sure that happens.
So, if you support their safely coming home, then you have to support the war. That's what the troops are there for.
"I am sure that there are some there that support the war. They volunteered so they obviously have the military mind set." - wolfs den
Some? Also, from the rest of your reply, they're children? Blind obedience?
You've GOT to be f***ken kidding me! The majority of the troops deployed to Iraq support the war. Yes, they volunteered to serve, but it has more than just having a military mindset.
They see a cause that many people I've debated with don't see, or understand. It's like what that Marine's wife said. They believe in what they're doing over there. I've explained some of this cause on Rants and Raves.
Their age ranges.
Most the new ones are in their late teens, early 20s. But you also have people in their mid to late 20s, their 30s, and 40s serving over there. The higher up you go in the age range, the higher up in rank you go, the stronger the support for the war becomes.
This isn't because of "blind" loyalty, or conditioning either. People in the military are free to think and believe what they want... there's a minority that opposes the war.
These guys may be in their early 20s, but they know a hell of a lot more about what's going on, big picture wise, than most people their age who aren't in the military. And they're not children either.
Basic Combat Training weeds the boys out. These guys served in combat.
They had to make decisions that non veteran civilians their age don't face on a daily basis. Many of these guys have responsibility most their counterparts won't have for years. These guys see the big picture, and have a better grasp of what's going on than non veterans older than them.
I have a hard time accepting your, "I support the troops" statements. Especially after you turn around and label them as kids. Blind obedience? Great, here, why don't you chew on this for a while:
"By supporting the troops, I mean I want them home safely." - wolfs den
"They are also mostly children and I do not take their blind obedience seriously." - wolfs den
Your words give your real standing on this away.
As for the military wives you met and their position on the war. I'll quote what a marine wife said here on R&R:
"I loved what you had to say! It's like you pretty much took the words right out of my mouth. My husband is a Marine serving in Iraq right now, and although I do miss him, I know what he's doing is important. When he or his friends are in between tours and are asked if they would ever go back, most say in a heartbeat! Why? Not because they are crazy, but because they know the importance of getting the job done. If we can finish what was started, this country will never move forward. And I find it funny that the people who oppose the war so much are the people with no ties to it. And the ones that don't exactly want the war, but are supporting it, are the ones with loved ones fighting for us. To all you in the military and those who support, thank you from the bottom of my heart!!" - Proud Marine Wife
There are a lot of reasons to why we don't have as much anti war activity now as we did in Vietnam. The draft is one. But they stopped that in 1973, the last year of US combat unit involvement in Vietnam.
I also credit alternative sources of information. Back then, as now, the media was opposed to the war. They basically had the monopoly on the news. Anchors didn't have to worry about online bloggers calling BS on their reporting. Nobody blogging from the "Green Zone" we'd set up over there giving us the real story of what's going on.
They didn't have talk show programs similar to Rush's, Bill's, and Sean's. They didn't have counter protest organizations like Protest Warrior.
Based on their different attitudes, I'd say that had congress been in Republican hands, with a Republican White House, and had these information counter balances been around during the Vietnam War, we would've won it completely, not just militarily.
Let's address your calls for Bush and Cheney's impeachment.
I debated with someone on a message board about this very topic. NONE of his "copy and paste from leftie site" amounted to justification for impeachment and removal. I've heard people argue that they should be impeached, but none of them offered any real facts to support that.
I could see that you have an underlying animosity against the military, and against the Bush Administration.
wolfs den said:
Again, your post states your opinion. But that does not make it valid. By supporting the troops, I mean I want them home safely. I am sure that there are some there that support the war. They volunteered so they obviously have the military mind set. They are also mostly children and I do not take their blind obedience seriously. I know I will get flamed for this but I really do not care. I work with many military wifes and some are for the war and many are not. I hope for their families sake that their husbands can get home safely. My generation faced a real animosity toward the returning military. I did not support that war, but I still did not spit on the returning vets either.
The only reason we dont have the same kind of rebellion about Iraq that we did with Viet Nam is that we don't have the draft active. People are of the opinion that since it doesn't effect them and the soldiers volunteered, that it is an non issue.
Now I will give you my opinion, not based on facts anymore than yours is. I think Bush and Cheney should be impeached and imprisoned and executed. If allowed to I would push the lethal cocktail myself.
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